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Greetings All,
I haven't been to Burning Man, and I didn't get to Kiwiburn this year.
I have followed the Burning Man culture via friends and online for a bout 10 years now. I am delighted that it happens, that people go, especially people I know. One of the big reasons I don't go is a total unwillingness to subject myself to uncomfortable (for me) noise levels for several days in a row. I have no moral issue against noise, just a nervous system that is quickly fried if I don't get to rest it when I need to.
I don't think I am alone in this as it seems part of the cultural norm to have to 'recover' after a burn.
OK, that is fine for fit young single people who have no dependants to care for, who can afford to party large for a few days no matter the consequences. It is not OK for, lets see, lots of older people I know, children, lots of people I know caring for children, people with health related disabilities, people with hearing disabilities. Etc.......
So, my question is this and I have no vested interest in the answer. Is the burn culture largely for fit young white self seeking single people (or people who wish they were) who consider creative expression and freedom synonymous with the ability to generate and need to tolerate random loud noise at any time of the day or night?
Just curious. I can't see anything directly about this in the official literature.
I haven't been to Burning Man, and I didn't get to Kiwiburn this year.
I have followed the Burning Man culture via friends and online for a bout 10 years now. I am delighted that it happens, that people go, especially people I know. One of the big reasons I don't go is a total unwillingness to subject myself to uncomfortable (for me) noise levels for several days in a row. I have no moral issue against noise, just a nervous system that is quickly fried if I don't get to rest it when I need to.
I don't think I am alone in this as it seems part of the cultural norm to have to 'recover' after a burn.
OK, that is fine for fit young single people who have no dependants to care for, who can afford to party large for a few days no matter the consequences. It is not OK for, lets see, lots of older people I know, children, lots of people I know caring for children, people with health related disabilities, people with hearing disabilities. Etc.......
So, my question is this and I have no vested interest in the answer. Is the burn culture largely for fit young white self seeking single people (or people who wish they were) who consider creative expression and freedom synonymous with the ability to generate and need to tolerate random loud noise at any time of the day or night?
Just curious. I can't see anything directly about this in the official literature.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Thu, April 26, 2007 - 4:08 AMbasically the place if free... but pretty conciderate..
Last year we put the sound camps well away from the camping area... the party zone was close... but not invasive.. though centrecamp wound up being a bit wrong.... but that was a learning curve thing.
But in answer to your question... yes it is important that people are free to express themselves.. but was taken into consideration when the place was set up... so that people could be equally free to involve themselves.. or not. -
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Unsu...
Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Fri, April 27, 2007 - 1:53 AM
"But in answer to your question... yes it is important that people are free to express themselves.. but was taken into consideration when the place was set up... so that people could be equally free to involve themselves.. or not."
Did this policy include DJ Insomnia's little contribution?
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Thu, April 26, 2007 - 4:26 PM"Burning Man is dedicated to radical self-expression, but it is also dedicated to creating community. This means we all must find a way to get along with our neighbors. "
Burning Man has got an offical policy (<a href=www.burningman.com/on_the_p...l)</a> , or as official as it gets. The way I see it, its a balancing act, between letting people do what they want, and having to cope with disagreements over what is or isn't acceptable. And like all balancing acts, there's no one single solution.
This can be made less of a problem by good city planning. Last year's centre camp was in the wrong place, and by that I mean I had ear plugs, ear muffs and was sleeping in a closed up van and it was still bloody loud. And as Urs pointed out, at about 5 am, if people have to drive home the next day, keeping them awake when they want to sleep isn't terribly safe.
The site isn't short on space for people to be loud and for people to get some sleep. So I reckon we can make this not a problem for most people.
But fundamentally yes, the whole BM experience is supposed to be inclusive of all. But its also based around an extreme experience in a harsh environment, which isn't welcoming of all. There's a tension there that's unresolved. How do you make it suitable for someone in a wheelchair, without making it suitable for someone who just wants to come along, sit down, drink chardonay, and watch all the amusing hippies? -
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Unsu...
Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Fri, April 27, 2007 - 1:51 AMThanks for such a comprehensive answer.
In answer to your possible rhetorical question:
"How do you make it suitable for someone in a wheelchair, without making it suitable for someone who just wants to come along, sit down, drink chardonay, and watch all the amusing hippies?"
I think - communities are not responsible for thinking through every access issue people may come with. However, (I believe) the spirit of inclusivity requires a commitment to at least be willing to have a debate before choosing to exclude on the basis of access. For instance, it is likely not feasible to make a paddock suitable for a wheelchair. but there are lots of other mobility options which could be explored before the idea gets chucked in the 'too-hard-basket.'
I've been on both sides, more than once, for different reasons, and I know it can be just as horrible to have to say "sorry, we're not suitable for you" as it is to be excluded.
Thanks
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Fri, April 27, 2007 - 2:34 AM"it is likely not feasible to make a paddock suitable for a wheelchair"
It is however, feasible to make a wheelchair suitable for a paddock:
www.sitski.com/dhx1.htm
or
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/techn...5063672.stm
I think being more organised next year will make people happy. Centre Camp will, we are told, not have a PA. Pink Moa will be bigger, better and probably over on that hill again. Even with Centre Camp cranking out the sounds, there were still quiter places to camp - down by the lake for instance... -
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Fri, April 27, 2007 - 2:55 AMthis a burn.....
some nutter should upscale this:
www.crabfu.com/steamtoys/rc_steamipede/
I know of no-one nuts enough....
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Fri, April 27, 2007 - 3:42 AMJez has hit the nail on the head with regards to the official policy and i can't comment on Kiwiburn but maybe I shed some light on how it works on the playa
The playa gets its fair share of disabled people, and by and large the ORG does their best to help out, they are expected to bring everything they need and the ORG allows them to get special permits for motorised vehicle if they are physically disabled but the event is still 'Radical Self reliance' and this extends to everybody. if you are incapable of dealing with the environment you shouldn't go, nobody will stop you, but if you get evac'ed you'll get stuck with the medical bills.
The playa is big enough for everybody to find their own zone, that's why camps like Hush Vill came into existence (a theme camp dedicated to quiet) the sound camps are put out on the edge of the horse shoe where their speakers can be pointed into the deep playa and if you camp out on the edges of the city its pretty damm quiet at night. But you will always get Camp A and Camp B in an all out yelling match because one wants to have an all night dance party and the other wants to sleep.
This is generally where the Black Rock Rangers can help and do help. by stepping in and attempting to mediate the situation in a non confrontational way, by finding a solution both parties are happy with, Its an interesting situation, Camp a is free to express need for sleep while Camp b is free to express their desire to play music :)
on a side not there is a max db rating camps can push out of their speakers one rating for in the city and another for the large sound installation camps.
Is the Playa for the young and free, i really think the black rock cencus speaks volumes
afterburn.burningman.com/04/ce...x.html
I think of Burningman as more of a city than a party in the desert, young people will be young people and they will party, but old people will be old people too and have dinners with friends and hang out with their families, make art, the playa is for everyone and no matter who you are or what you want, you can find a place for yourself out there. my friends out there range from 18 to 65 and only a small number are actually there to just party. hell i spend my week out there working :)
dance camps and loud noise are only one part of the experience, there is so much more out there.
I hope this answers your question and I'm always happy to answer questions about the playa :)
-Tuatha
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 6:38 PMI agree with the other comments that have been made, so won't add much except to say,
it is one of my personal missions for next year to ensure that the quiet camping zone really is quiet. The placement of centre camp/any noisy camps will be carefully looked at in this regard.
I think it's unlikely that the quiet zone will be utterly silent, but the level of sound there should be so low that it should not be intrusive, ie no more than the background noise level in a city.
Also, I personally (and I think most burners) don't want it to be a place for 20-something white people. I want it to be for Chinese, Samoan, Maori, Russian, Polish, Argentinian... and as many other cultures who want to join in as possible. I am not sure what the average age was at the last Kiwiburn, but there were a number in their 40s and a few in their 50s and 60s. Long may it last.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 10:31 PMI can reveal that in order to do this the quiet camping area will be equipped with a 50k turbo PA through which helix can broadcast his calls for quiet. Accompanied by ambient music...
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Sun, April 29, 2007 - 10:41 PMand there will be a steam powered serpent roaming around going
"Hushhhh, hushhhh, hushhhhhh, hushhhh...
driven by an eleven year old sound marshal... -
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Unsu...
Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 1:41 AMGreat Myles,
If I actually make it to a burn can I hire said 11 year old and steam powered machine to act as white noise?
Thanks everyone for your comments I am enjoying getting a feel for the community as a whole.
BC -
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 2:06 AMLots of great thoughts here... I think if you sum them up you will see that while the organisers try to create conditions that are relatively harmonious, the essense (to me) of a burn event is that we are all there as artists and audience both. Sometimes one does not like, perhaps even to the point of physical sickness, the art others are creating. If you need quiet for health reasons, an opportunity to mediate your need for quiet with the person who needs to make noise may not be a solution to your immediate problem.
Since this is a burn event, participant created, at the end of the day the question is, what are you going to do about it? Not attend? Attend and suffer? Attend, take some moderate precautions and suffer moderately, or Create Something New and Fabulous in response to this perception conundrum you are experiencing. Bonus points for sharing your creation with others :-) -
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Unsu...
Hmm? what will I do about it?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 4:36 AMGreat call friend - haha -time will tell.....if I create something new and fabulous can I borrow your van to truck it all up there? Of course, being a farm, there are probably straw bales around...........maybe that strawed in dome isn't such a remote idea? -
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Unsu...
Of course, then I'd be strawed in with YOUR snoring....
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 4:38 AMyuk yuk.......ok i'm signing off before this gets too ridiculous.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 2:09 AMActually, the median age for BM is in the 30's, according to polls, and certainly according to my experience at both BM and KB. I also think earplugs are highly recommended technology, in any situation you may find yourself with other people exisiting nearby, when you are camping or otherwise sharing accomodations more closely than your own bricks and mortar where you can lock yourself metres away and behind several layers of soundproofing from any other human who might have different habits to yourself. I learned this last week sharing a room with 5 guys, 2 of whom snored. I <3 earplugs.
Burning Man has taught me some extremely valuable life skills! :) -
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Unsu...
Earplugs? I love earplugs!
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 4:30 AMI went to bed last night wearing my heavy duty decibal ones, the silicon ones that you mold to fit your ear. My daughter started cleaning her room at 10pm and no way was I going to stop this. We live in a converted 70's motel with paper thin walls. anyway apparently the vacuum cleaner came out - I was blissfully unaware.
The last festival I went to I was proud to camp near the wettest, grossest snorer you have ever ever heard - as did Kathy (also earplug aware) - we were fine. God though, he was amazing. I told him a couple of times I had to stop myself swinging my boot into his tent just for fun. (If you ever join tribe and read this - you know who you are - I only have two words for you - STOP EATING DAIRY!)
I always have earplugs with me - They are great on the bus when the driver decides it's time to listen to the most commercial radio station at full volume. And so on. I could go on.
Yes, I love earplugs. They are like a room within a room. if and when I make it to KB I'll have spares, for sure.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 12:01 PMI have never found the noise at BM to be a problem, but then I can fall asleep lying on a subwoofer.
I reiterate what's been said above. Learning curve for Kiwiburn regarding the main camping area vs centre camp area. This is being addressed this year. However, yes, I think random noise is to be expected, even if it's just the flip-flop of KB's resident perimeter runner as he goes past at 3am. There are some almost-sound-proof areas in the paddock, that could be utilised by someone seeking complete peace.
However, I must add a quote from someone or other who was at KB this year - "One does not go to a burn to catch up on one's sleep."
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 3:58 PMI am in awe of your sleeping-next-to-rocket-engines ability.
For people without that talent, do you think it's worth having a designated Extra Special Quiet Camping Area For Wusses area? Coz finding that area is best done in advance, not at 3 am when Camp Nuclear Bass decides its time for their version of the apocalypse. -
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 4:10 PMyea... and for those doing art instillations etc... a good nights sleep is pretty important after a day in the sun.
I know I was wrecked from doing the man... and it was rather convienient that we were so far from centrecamp...
No sleepie make artists pissy and grumpie and they don't like it.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Mon, April 30, 2007 - 5:06 PMbahahaha!
I want to join "Camp Nuclear Bass"
There was a quiet zone last year, but as has been pointed out, centre camp was near it. This will not happen next year because a) centre camp will possibly relocate nearer the man and b) centre camp may only have a small sound system next year.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Tue, May 1, 2007 - 11:03 PMI have discovered that while rocket engines, subwoofers and Nuclear Bass (I'm so joining that camp!) are not a problem, I have some difficulty with sleeping through drunken acoustic Pink Floyd enthusiasts who don't know the lyrics.
(i suspect there may be some ocd involvement in this) -
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 1:02 AM.. and did they get you to trade,
your zeroes for goats,
not hashish for cheese...
Those lyrics? -
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 2:03 AMNuclear Bass camp... so there, even if there is a bit of trance.. maybe... ummm as long as theres some metal before hand... but even then hmmmm haha
DUBSTEP! yeeeeaa play some of that big dirty baaaaaassssss
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Sat, May 5, 2007 - 9:00 PM... goldair for a cool breeze
Gold comforts or shames,
and the jew exchange
and walk on part of the wall
or Lee Droll in a cage?
(i am tempted to ask who Lee Droll is one of these days)
And then.. *mumblemumblelalalalaaaaa* "WISH YOU WERE HERE!!!"
Funny how everyone knows that bit.
The guitarist was really good though.... -
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Sun, May 6, 2007 - 5:33 PMDave Gilmour. Nice chap - he used to own a big house in London but after realising that he didn't stay there that much he donated it to homeless people.
He also collects Porsches - just to balance his life out.
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Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Fri, June 29, 2007 - 2:15 AMFor people without that talent, do you think it's worth having a designated Extra Special Quiet Camping Area For Wusses area?
Oh hell yes. And it would be a bonus if it was easily findable in the dark. The group I was with arrived in the dark in the middle of a downpour. We had no choice but to pitch our tents right next to Centre Camp.
Cheers,
Urs.
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Unsu...
Re: Is random and invasive noise a given in the brave new paradigm that is the burning culture?
Wed, May 2, 2007 - 4:32 AMYou remind me of my brother, who used to build stages for rock concerts that come through Vancouver. If he didn't like the band he used to lie under the stage and nap until the concert was over, when it all had to be taken apart.
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